US Sanctioned Torture

kagoscuba · 12-12-2007, 01:56 PM

Just would like to see what other peole think about this administration's sudden adoration of torture, and I want to see if I am left-wing, right-wing, or just plain nuts (most likely). The torture de jour is waterboarding.

1. Is it torture?

2. Should people in the US caught doing it be prosecuted as war criminals?

3. Would you support state-sanctioned torture of someone to save 1 person, 10 people, a thousand, a million people?

My Answers:

1. Yes

2. Yes - because the US has prosecuted Japanese commanders for waterboarding US troops during WWII, and they were sentenced to life in prison. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Not to mention waterboarding is against the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ.

3. No to all.

Total left-wing loon, right? Wait...there's more. I don't support government sanctioned torture. In other words, it is bad policy. It makes the US a lesser place to have this policy part of the official record. We lose the appearance of having a moral high ground, as a nation. Nothing is rarely as it appears, however...what the CIA does in black-ops they do not need to report to the general public, and they should use any methods deemed needed. If they need to torture, maim, or kill to get the information they need, then so be it. However, tell them if they get caught, they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That keeps them discrete (as they should be already). I call it the speeding car syndrome. We are all given cars that are made to exceed any speed limit here in the US. We are given the freedom to drive the car, within a set of laws. If we break the laws though, we get penalized.

For better or worse agencies like the CIA perform duties most of are unable or unwilling to do, and those duties are needed to keep us free. While I am against wholesale torturing of prisoners; I also understand there are times when more extreme measures are needed.

*donning flame suit* FLAME ON!!

:)

anonemouse · 12-12-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kagoscuba

Just would like to see what other peole think about this administration's sudden adoration of torture, and I want to see if I am left-wing, right-wing, or just plain nuts (most likely). The torture de jour is waterboarding.

1. Is it torture?

2. Should people in the US caught doing it be prosecuted as war criminals?

3. Would you support state-sanctioned torture of someone to save 1 person, 10 people, a thousand, a million people?

My Answers:

1. Yes

2. Yes - because the US has prosecuted Japanese commanders for waterboarding US troops during WWII, and they were sentenced to life in prison. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Not to mention waterboarding is against the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ.

3. No to all.

Total left-wing loon, right? Wait...there's more. I don't support government sanctioned torture. In other words, it is bad policy. It makes the US a lesser place to have this policy part of the official record. We lose the appearance of having a moral high ground, as a nation. Nothing is rarely as it appears, however...what the CIA does in black-ops they do not need to report to the general public, and they should use any methods deemed needed. If they need to torture, maim, or kill to get the information they need, then so be it. However, tell them if they get caught, they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That keeps them discrete (as they should be already). I call it the speeding car syndrome. We are all given cars that are made to exceed any speed limit here in the US. We are given the freedom to drive the car, within a set of laws. If we break the laws though, we get penalized.

For better or worse agencies like the CIA perform duties most of are unable or unwilling to do, and those duties are needed to keep us free. While I am against wholesale torturing of prisoners; I also understand there are times when more extreme measures are needed.

*donning flame suit* FLAME ON!!

:)

I actually fully agree with you. :) :guess

Wheetsin · 12-12-2007, 02:38 PM

For anyone out there who doesn't know (my husband didn't until very recently), waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning. Usually it's the subject strapped or chained to board that is either tilted downward (head at the lowest part), or includes a mechanism to tilt the head. Water is then poured over the face (bucket, hose, whatever), and the angle of the head and the duration the water is applied cause controlled drowning. Slight variations of the above, but that's the general principal (my husband thought it was a method of "Chinese water torture").

Mariposa Bella · 12-12-2007, 02:40 PM

Can we do it to child molestors, pedofiles?? I can volunteer.. Maybe if they were tortured they would stop violating children.

Wheetsin · 12-12-2007, 02:47 PM

As for the questions:

1. Is it torture? I think it is.

Quote:

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—

(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and...

Someone's gonna have a heck of a time convincing me we aren't full into 2C. Even using the argument "they're told they won't be killed" - I would consider the instinctive and physical reaction to drowning or potential drowning enough to trump that.

I've come pretty damn close to losing consciousness under water, and have had moments when I've been underwater with no means of getting air, and farther up to swim than the air in my lungs would last and it doesn't matter what you "know" - the only thing that matters is what you're experiencing.

2. Should people in the US caught doing it be prosecuted as war criminals? Absolutely.

3. Would you support state-sanctioned torture of someone to save 1 person, 10 people, a thousand, a million people? This one I have to say depends. Depends on the context, what's at stake, etc.

**Jack** · 12-12-2007, 03:30 PM

This is one hell of a moral dilemma.

On the one hand, we have state sanctioned executions. While controversial, some have no problem with that issue.

On the other, we have the *threat* of execution, while not actually carrying it out.

The purpose of the first is to punish those who have committed at LEAST one capitol crime. The purpose of the other is to secure information to prevent a capitol crime from happening.

That we have the luxury to discuss such matters of state policy, demonstrates the inherent conflict of attempting to survive in a world full of opportunists who would do our way of life great harm.

Personally, I consider 'official ambiguity' about the matter as good a position as is achievable.

It gets down to whether or not my old neighborhood kids were going to gang up to torment crazy Old Barney down the street.....while perhaps harmless enough day-to-day....he was rumored to be 'just crazy enough' he might come at you with a machete he had hidden in his warren for just such emergencies...

So, as a 'policy' of state....no....as a potential....hmmm....YOU can guess how much poking crazy Old Barney will endure before he nails you....

And for a world more tolerant of those endless examples of beheadings, stonings, shooting of school children in the back, 'honor rapes' and 'honor killings', and endless parade of homicidal bombing of civilians by radicals....where does 'threat' of drowning really fit?

Chris_NJ · 12-12-2007, 03:55 PM

In certain curcumstances I feel we have to do what we have to do. Do we kill these men when we use these techniques ? No. Is there long term physical problems caused by this? No. If it gets information out of terrorists who do not follow any rule of war then so be it. Be sure there techniques will kill you in the end.

Wheetsin · 12-12-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Is there long term physical problems caused by this? No.

Sometimes.

And don't forget the psychological problems, which can be just as terrible to live with. And "live" is a stretch in some cases.

Chris_NJ · 12-12-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheetsin

Sometimes.

And don't forget the psychological problems, which can be just as terrible to live with. And "live" is a stretch in some cases.

The ones that are getting the psychological problems are not ones I could care less about but the ones that the terrorists may go after will have more to worry about than that.

We need to remember that the ones they do things like this to are the same ones that would love to kill anyone of us the first chance they got. Ask Berg or Pearl how humane they treated them.

lizzie_07 · 12-12-2007, 08:44 PM

In my opinion it's hypocritical to say that the United States can torture (or whatever you would like to refer to it as) people, regardless of who they are or what they've done, when if another country carried out this act upon an American it would most certainly be looked down upon by the U.S. and they would want to prosecute those who did it. I don't care how many people they think it will save, it is unethical. Also, the United States looks bad in the eyes of MANY around the world, this does not help things.

Chris_NJ · 12-12-2007, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizzie_07

In my opinion it's hypocritical to say that the United States can torture (or whatever you would like to refer to it as) people, regardless of who they are or what they've done, when if another country carried out this act upon an American it would most certainly be looked down upon by the U.S. and they would want to prosecute those who did it. I don't care how many people they think it will save, it is unethical. Also, the United States looks bad in the eyes of MANY around the world, this does not help things.

If these were soldiers of another countries military we would not be doing this. These men are not and are not covered under the Geneva convention. Our troops have been captured by terrorists and were mutilated and murdered. I personally don't worry about what others think about the US. We have to do what we have to do to protect our citizens first. This is not the first time our image was not pristine in the eyes of people and will not be the last. But when they need help ask who they call first. Yup the damned if we do and damned if we don't USA.

lizzie_07 · 12-12-2007, 10:47 PM

Perhaps the U.S. government SHOULD care more about how other countries feel about them. If you want your country to be as safe as possible, thinking you can do no wrong and, for example, get away with torture when others cannot is not the way to go about it. Personally, I would feel much safer knowing my country is trying to make peace around the world than making enemies left and right by going against the UN and thinking they are untouchable and above the law. Don’t get me wrong, I like the United States. I just see the way your government is conducting itself and I worry for your safety. You have to understand, others who use torture techniques also think they are doing what they have to do to get to their ultimate goal (information, prisoner releases, etc.), so what makes them in the wrong if you are not? I feel that regardless of who is doing the torturing, it is wrong. Period. The United States is above using torture.

DonHoll1 · 12-12-2007, 11:07 PM

I do not believe in torture. Period I also do not believe in the death penalty. Donna

**Jack** · 12-12-2007, 11:25 PM

re: "....by going against the UN......"

Lord give me strength......

BuffettPhan · 12-12-2007, 11:47 PM

Water board them all; let Allah sort it out.

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