Black Ministers vs Gay Rights...

MsDad · 05-08-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leatha_g

An attempt was made to add senior citizens, pregnant women, prior victims, children under 18, the unborn, court witnesses and members of our armed forces to the bill, giving them the same “protected class” given homosexuals. The Democrats defeated all amendments, reserving the “protected class” for homosexuals only.

Matthew Shepard, Pfc Barry Winchell and Brandon Teena (to name just a few) were not brutally murdered because they were "senior citizens, pregnant women, prior victims, children under 18, unborn, court witnesses or members of our armed forces" (although Pfc Winchell was in the Army, it was fellow soldiers who killed him). They were all murdered because they were Gay (Matthew Shepard & Barry Winchell) or Transgendered (Brandon Teena). I've never heard of anyone being murdered for any of those reasons you listed. As for the argument about a murder is a murder, etc, why are there varying degrees of murder, as well as manslaughter, etc depending on intent and circumstance? That reasoning is flawed.

Sunta · 05-08-2007, 01:30 PM

So, only if your disclamer says that Christians who are not infavor of this bill are not all haters.

Unless, of course, you still think that way about me.
Well, to be honest, in answer to the first quote above, I don't know, because I have not received a satisfactory answer as to why this bill would be detrimental to them. Since I can't find that answer, my suspicion is that the real reason for some is that they are hateful of Gays. I don't know why anyone would stand in the way of something that will do no harm and could be potentially beneficial.

For example, I could say "I am against giving disabled people extra governmental aid because I don't receive extra governmental aid", but if I don't need the aid in the first place, why would I care that disabled people get extra? Additionally, if I did need the aid, but I wasn't disabled, then it would be kind of selfish of me to deny someone at a disadvantage the extra money that could potentially help them. So, I don't know, I just don't see any sound argument for being against the hate crimes bill.

As for the second quote above, I try not to make personal judgments about individuals here and prefer to keep my commentary more broad in scope. But, since you've stated that you don't dislike Gays I believe you. However, I still don't know why you would care to oppose the bill.

green · 05-08-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leatha_g

An attempt was made to add senior citizens, pregnant women, prior victims, children under 18, the unborn, court witnesses and members of our armed forces to the bill, giving them the same “protected class” given homosexuals. The Democrats defeated all amendments, reserving the “protected class” for homosexuals only.

This came in my AFA Action Alert

But, Leatha, you know that folks aren't attacking people because they are elderly or pregnant or military, etc. And you must know that there are folks who are attacking other people because they like to beat up on "fags!" This attempt to add these other groups to this protected "class" was an attempt to dilute the power of this proposal and thus is deeply offensive.

wavydaby · 05-08-2007, 07:51 PM

There ARE people who do specifically target the military.
Also, if a person of a minority killed a person of a majority due to "hate", it could not be called a hate crime
See CNN about the group of terrorist who were targeting the military.
Also.. more information I have found:
(1) It is unconstitutional. The 14th Amendment requires that all citizens be given equal treatment under the law. Hate crimes laws create special classes of victims and do not treat all victims fairly.
(2) It could ultimately lead to prosecution for thoughts and restrictions on free speech and religious liberty. Although H.R. 1592 prosecutes only “acts of violence” and does not prosecute expressions or opinions, it opens the door to examining the thoughts of not only a criminal, but everyone with whom he may have come into contact. An overzealous prosecutor could turn a criminal prosecution into a political correctness prosecution. Broadly written hate crimes bills in other states and countries have been used to restrict the freedom of politically incorrect and unpopular speech. This bill could be used to advance the politically correct agenda in this country by providing greater protections for certain classes of people. Future legislation could expand these protections and place restrictions on religious liberty and free speech.
http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/Nat...92/default.asp

JeninCO · 05-08-2007, 08:03 PM

There should be a law stating that if you target a person because of their race, religion or sexual preference it's a hate crime.

You're muddying the waters.

People who attack the military are called terrorists and as we're fully aware they get shipped off to Guantanamo faster than you can spit. No trial, no judgment, just prison.

People who target gay, black and hispanic and Asians are doing it out of hatred of a specific group, and it's so common that we do need a law.

JeninCO · 05-08-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaby

(1) It is unconstitutional. The 14th Amendment requires that all citizens be given equal treatment under the law. Hate crimes laws create special classes of victims and do not treat all victims fairly.

If people were treated fairly under the law, why are women paid less than men, ethnic minorities treated worse than whites and PEOPLE BEATING UP GAYS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaby

(2) It could ultimately lead to prosecution for thoughts and restrictions on free speech and religious liberty.

Try going up to a Republican and telling them Bush is wrong and the war should end...then, you're a traitor! If Bush has his way anything contrary to his agenda would be prosecuted.

396power · 05-08-2007, 08:16 PM

Look this is it in a nut shell. I don't like a homosexuals life style (there I said it). But I don't hate them or want physical harm to happen to them. I just want them to see that the way they live is not right. And if they don't then so be it I can not change them. I would expect someone to tell me if I was doing something morally wrong. And I do plenty wrong. But I'm not wrong for the way I belive. It is amazing too me how people put down the Bible, and blame all the problems they have created on GOD. the orgins of the Bible has been around for around 5000 yrs. You tell me somthing else that has been around that long, that could withstand generation after generation trying to disprove it. and it is a gateway to the future,past and present. The last books which were written 1900 yrs ago tell of our days now, and how there would be a falling away of the faith and homosexuality would be common. Well look around the sin that was thought of (only a generation ago) as sick and underground. Is now main stream to the world, so many things have come true that is in the Bible and not one has been proved flawed. So if we have these answers, why don't we use them. The truth is that many that don't belive in the bible has not studied it
I was in the mission once to prove it wrong. I grew up in Church. And when I was an adult I wanted to know that what I was told about JESUS was true I started living in the world and I was thinking the way some of you think. And I tried to disprove the Bible. I could not do it I have read alot and There is some very direct things that could not be orchestrated that were written about JESUS 700 yrs before he was born. And many things that happen in modern history that was written long ago. Now I don't know all there is to know about GOD he is infinite and I'm finite. But I know he love me, as bad as I am. He love you whoever you are and he even loves you if your a homosexual. I know that, and the reson I know this is because while yet I was still a sinner he sent he's son to die for me and all of us. As much as he loves us though someone has to pay for our sins(mine and your's Mine have been paid for by CHRIST) The question is will you let him Pay for yours? The wages of sin is death. He has already died for the sins of man, will you accept it?

leatha_g · 05-08-2007, 08:34 PM

Guess we'll see how 'hate crimes' against religions work right here.. lol. Put on your armor, 369.

marjon9 · 05-08-2007, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 396power

Look this is it in a nut shell. I don't like a homosexuals life style (there I said it). But I don't hate them or want physical harm to happen to them. I just want them to see that the way they live is not right. And if they don't then so be it I can not change them. I would expect someone to tell me if I was doing something morally wrong. And I do plenty wrong. But I'm not wrong for the way I belive. It is amazing too me how people put down the Bible, and blame all the problems they have created on GOD. the orgins of the Bible has been around for around 5000 yrs. You tell me somthing else that has been around that long, that could withstand generation after generation trying to disprove it. and it is a gateway to the future,past and present. The last books which were written 1900 yrs ago tell of our days now, and how there would be a falling away of the faith and homosexuality would be common. Well look around the sin that was thought of (only a generation ago) as sick and underground. Is now main stream to the world, so many things have come true that is in the Bible and not one has been proved flawed. So if we have these answers, why don't we use them. The truth is that many that don't belive in the bible has not studied it
I was in the mission once to prove it wrong. I grew up in Church. And when I was an adult I wanted to know that what I was told about JESUS was true I started living in the world and I was thinking the way some of you think. And I tried to disprove the Bible. I could not do it I have read alot and There is some very direct things that could not be orchestrated that were written about JESUS 700 yrs before he was born. And many things that happen in modern history that was written long ago. Now I don't know all there is to know about GOD he is infinite and I'm finite. But I know he love me, as bad as I am. He love you whoever you are and he even loves you if your a homosexual. I know that, and the reson I know this is because while yet I was still a sinner he sent he's son to die for me and all of us. As much as he loves us though someone has to pay for our sins(mine and your's Mine have been paid for by CHRIST) The question is will you let him Pay for yours? The wages of sin is death. He has already died for the sins of man, will you accept it?

I can imagine it is very comforting to be that sure about all those things. I'm glad it works for you.

I want to make just one comment about some of the things you write. The other day you wrote about how abortions used to be illegal and now the liberal atheists have made things so much worse because they are now at least partially legal.

And today your write about the "good ol' days" when homosexuality was considered "sick and underground" just a generation ago, and now it is "mainstream."

In your eyes, these changes are signs of the deterioration, and perhaps of the end of the world. For many of us, though, these are signs of wonderful progress. Just keep that in mind when you write about these things. Not everyone thinks it used to be better when homosexuality was considered "sick and underground," and when abortions were illegal. Quite a few of us think it was much worse back then. So it does not help you win over converts by talking about those past times as if they were "better" than today.

MsDad · 05-08-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 396power

I don't like a homosexuals life style (there I said it)

First of all, I have a LIFE, not just a lifestyle. Please get your arms around this very simple concept. My lifestyle consists of work, home, kids, kids' activities, etc. My life consists of every thing I do. Get a clue - THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GAY LIFESTYLE! No one's life revolves around being Gay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 396power

...and he even loves you if your a homosexual.

Well, I suppose that makes your God extra-generous if he can stoop so far as to love a homosexual.

TommyO · 05-08-2007, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 396power

The truth is that many that don't belive in the bible has not studied it

The truth is that some people that believe the bible have not studied much of anything!!!

Sunta · 05-09-2007, 12:07 AM

were written about JESUS 700 yrs before he was born. And many things that happen in modern history that was written long ago.

Yeah, did you ever hear of fiction? It can be written 700 years in the past and different writers can pick up the same story and expand on it. It's not that difficult.

As for the bible's "prophesies", they are so broad and general that I promise you I could make a list right now that 100 years or 1000 in the future people could pick up and say "when she said this, she meant this event!"

"In the time of the great ruler Brown who is called a lion, a great nation will face hardships of famine and drought."

I 100% promise that in the future, someone could take my "prophecy" and be convinced that I was talking about some yet-to-happen current event.

I always laugh when I see shows about "bible prophecy". It's like a bunch of lunatics feeding each other's delusions.

leatha_g · 05-09-2007, 02:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by babygrl1234

Now Leatha you know you can't be a Christian if you like gays.

I've heard that Christians don't like gays, period.

Tell that to my friends. Gays don't like Christians too much, either. I even have one who tells me often that the only thing women are good for is birthing gay babies. How politically correct is that? But, I can't help but love him anyway, even though I don't necessarily agree with his living arrangements and the demands he makes on society to have the world revolve around him. Oh well.. it is what it is..

leatha_g · 05-09-2007, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyO

The truth is that some people that believe the bible have not studied much of anything!!!

Some... and this could be said for some who don't believe it as well. :)

leatha_g · 05-09-2007, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunta

were written about JESUS 700 yrs before he was born. And many things that happen in modern history that was written long ago.

Yeah, did you ever hear of fiction? It can be written 700 years in the past and different writers can pick up the same story and expand on it. It's not that difficult.

As for the bible's "prophesies", they are so broad and general that I promise you I could make a list right now that 100 years or 1000 in the future people could pick up and say "when she said this, she meant this event!"

"In the time of the great ruler Brown who is called a lion, a great nation will face hardships of famine and drought."

I 100% promise that in the future, someone could take my "prophecy" and be convinced that I was talking about some yet-to-happen current event.

I always laugh when I see shows about "bible prophecy". It's like a bunch of lunatics feeding each other's delusions.

I hope you're right about this. Although, how one person could be so right just astounds me.

You are young. You have a long life ahead of you, I hope. I can't tell you how much one person can change throughout their years. Please don't allow your heart to be so hardened. There is so much before you that you can't possibly even begin to know.

If I am to be a 'lunatic' in your eyes, then so be it. But, I will never go back to where I began.