Are We ready for a Black President?

sfeiner · 04-07-2008, 10:32 AM

Watcher, Have I hurt you in any way? I know I have never hurt anyone who was black (although a black man hurt me but that is another issue and had nothing to do with his race). My ancestors didn't own any slaves. They were too poor and worked as hard as sany slave themselves just to keep alive. So what kind of "mends" do you want from me? I personally think everyone has to live in the here and now and try to do the best they can and give up the "poor me" attitude. Life is what you make it.

**Wheetsin** · 04-07-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Unfortunately it kind of does matter i mean we can all stick our heads in the sand when it comes to the racial issue of this country but lets think about it race is a issue in this country.

To anyone who has posted an opinion on whether we're ready for a BLACK (versus QUALIFIED, COMPETENT, etc.) candidate:

A black candidate with whom you're 20% aligned with is running against a white candidate with you're 95% aligned with. Which candidate gets your vote?

Which candidate would you vote for?

Sure, there are some blacks who will vote for Obama becuse he's black. That's just as bassackwards as whites who will vote for someone else to keep a black man from getting their vote.

TheWatcher · 04-07-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfeiner

Watcher, Have I hurt you in any way? I know I have never hurt anyone who was black (although a black man hurt me but that is another issue and had nothing to do with his race). My ancestors didn't own any slaves. They were too poor and worked as hard as sany slave themselves just to keep alive. So what kind of "mends" do you want from me? I personally think everyone has to live in the here and now and try to do the best they can and give up the "poor me" attitude. Life is what you make it.

wow... you missed the whole point.... ok not all white people owned slaves.
not all white people benefited from slavery. that being said i don't know what your racial makeup is but AMERICA owes blacks a lot not talking about individual people im talking about this country. and America owes native Americans even more, and they owe Asian Americans too America even owes Iraqis for this BS war. But (assuming your ancestors were immigrants to THIS* country) then their is no comparison to the struggles that were faced by black people in THIS* country.

and top answer the original question No you have not hurt me in any way. I have not the slightest clue what i said that would make you think that i had believed you hurt me.

*we are talking about America I understand that injustice happens world wide but in this discussion i am speaking about America And American faults.

TheWatcher · 04-07-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheetsin

To anyone who has posted an opinion on whether we're ready for a BLACK (versus QUALIFIED, COMPETENT, etc.) candidate:

A black candidate with whom you're 20% aligned with is running against a white candidate with you're 95% aligned with. Which candidate gets your vote?

Which candidate would you vote for?

Sure, there are some blacks who will vote for Obama becuse he's black. That's just as bassackwards as whites who will vote for someone else to keep a black man from getting their vote.

forgive me its Monday and my brain isn't working correctly, are you speaking about the people who say if hillary doesnt win they will vote for McCain?

sfeiner · 04-07-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWatcher

wow... you missed the whole point.... ok not all white people owned slaves.
not all white people benefited from slavery. that being said i don't know what your racial makeup is but AMERICA owes blacks a lot not talking about individual people im talking about this country. and America owes native Americans even more, and they owe Asian Americans too America even owes Iraqis for this BS war. But (assuming your ancestors were immigrants to THIS* country) then their is no comparison to the struggles that were faced by black people in THIS* country.

and top answer the original question No you have not hurt me in any way. I have not the slightest clue what i said that would make you think that i had believed you hurt me.

*we are talking about America I understand that injustice happens world wide but in this discussion i am speaking about America And American faults.

But who is America? goverment ? taxpayers? I think it's all of us, including you. So what exactly can we do? I think if it were to cost all other races except blacks more money everyone would be furious and there might be some hatred for blacks where non exists now. . We pay too much in taxes already. Were else would it come from. How else do we make up for what was done to your ancestors? What would make you feel vindicated? I would like to help, I'm sure a lot of people would like to do something to help blacks get over the "poor me" mind set, but what? If you have an answer, please share. I think if we elect a black man for president (because I think he would do a good job, not because he's black) that might help the racial issue (that is a non-issue for many many of us.)

Gloucester · 04-07-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWatcher

... AMERICA owes blacks a lot ... America owes native Americans even more, and they owe Asian Americans too America even owes Iraqis for this BS war...

My problem with these statements is that I AM AMERICA. Today. Right now. In 2008 - Me, you - all of us in this country are what define America today. Not past generations, but us.

I know that I don't owe any particular race ANYTHING except my respect. (And that is given only if the INDIVIDUAL is worthy.)

I do not judge races as a whole.

I do not owe anything.

If the government were to PAY BACK any or all races that IT has offended over the years, then that would mean I would suffer. My daughter would suffer. You and your children would suffer. Money that goes to schools, roads, benefits, etc. - would be diminished severely.

That's what I'm talking about when I say move on - go forward. Let it go. Reparations in ANY form would hurt this country. And, ultimately, all a country is made of is the people who live in it.

**Wheetsin** · 04-07-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

are you speaking about the people who say if hillary doesnt win they will vote for McCain?

No, I'm talking about America being ready for a BLACK president as opposed to the RIGHT president, for them.

Being black doesn't make someone a good candidate any more than being white does, MINUS the exceptions of ignorant or bigotted voters.

Don't believe I mentioned Hillary or McCain...

**Wheetsin** · 04-07-2008, 01:11 PM

Maybe someone else can reiterate my point for me? I'm not sure I can put it in any other words.

sfeiner · 04-07-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWatcher

No but we can work on tolerance and understanding and working towards making some kind of mends with the people whom this country has hurt and/or tormented.

This sentence is the one I was refering to. "some kinds of mends" Maybe I mis-understood but I took it to mean that whites in America need to do something to mend the injustice done to the black slaves. It would be nice if we could and it would be nice if we could make it up to the Japanese americans that were confined during the war and the native americans who lost all their hunting land. But what? What can anyone do? I know a lot of people who are adopted or who's familys never kept track of ancestors. I don't think they feel like they don't have roots. Everyone has roots, we just don't always know where they are.

Gloucester · 04-07-2008, 01:17 PM

Actually, I'm trying to think of anyone in my personal life who has said that they would vote for a black man or a woman just because they are black/woman and I can't think of any.

Does anyone know someone, or are you someone, that would vote for someone just because they are black or a woman?

Gloucester · 04-07-2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wheetsin

Maybe someone else can reiterate my point for me? I'm not sure I can put it in any other words.

I took it to mean that voting for someone because they are black is just as stupid as voting for someone because they are not.

I took Watcher's post to mean that there are people who are saying, they are Democrats who want Hillary, but will vote for Republican McCain because they don't want a black president.

???

TheWatcher · 04-07-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfeiner

But who is America? goverment ? taxpayers? I think it's all of us, including you. So what exactly can we do? I think if it were to cost all other races except blacks more money everyone would be furious and there might be some hatred for blacks where non exists now. . We pay too much in taxes already. Were else would it come from. How else do we make up for what was done to your ancestors? What would make you feel vindicated? I would like to help, I'm sure a lot of people would like to do something to help blacks get over the "poor me" mind set, but what? If you have an answer, please share. I think if we elect a black man for president (because I think he would do a good job, not because he's black) that might help the racial issue (that is a non-issue for many many of us.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gloucester

My problem with these statements is that I AM AMERICA. Today. Right now. In 2008 - Me, you - all of us in this country are what define America today. Not past generations, but us.

I know that I don't owe any particular race ANYTHING except my respect. (And that is given only if the INDIVIDUAL is worthy.)

I do not judge races as a whole.

I do not owe anything.

If the government were to PAY BACK any or all races that IT has offended over the years, then that would mean I would suffer. My daughter would suffer. You and your children would suffer. Money that goes to schools, roads, benefits, etc. - would be diminished severely.

That's what I'm talking about when I say move on - go forward. Let it go. Reparations in ANY form would hurt this country. And, ultimately, all a country is made of is the people who live in it.

Yes i know i am a American. Yet i live in a different America than you. I will come back to that.

I am not asking for monetary hand out... actually i would be happy if people would stop acting like slavery and other injustices were no bit deal, i am not and have never wanted money for slavery cause i am too far removed for it to matter to me. But my fathers mother and my father there are things that get passed down from generation to generation that are never forgotten and when people say or imply that all we need do is forget about it. That does My grand mother, my mother,my father and everyone in my family who could not or were not allowed to do something for the color of their skin a grave disservice. Yes i am part of a new more understanding generation that of witch i am proud, but the simple fact is that being black in American means something different. it means i have to CYA all the time. i live in a country where i live in constant fear of the police, where if i have to deal with the judicial system i am 40% more likely to get a harsher sentence than that of fairer skinned people, I live in a country where more that 10 times in my lifetime i have been stopped by the police because i fit the description,or i am in a nice car in the wrong neighborhood (predominately white),I live in a country when (especially in the south) i have been hand cuffed 6 time and yet i never have been arrested. this continued unfair treatment is what the black community is talking about. the fact the blacks in the US as close as 5 years ago are still being lynched for Dating white women. no i am not saying that YOU own the community anything but the country owes us Fairness. Now if you can understand that then thats fine and if you still can that fine too. The black community isn't trying to break America we have as little to gain from America breaking as anyone else we are in the schools we are here too. but we are not treated fairly every black person i know had been mistreated in some way. I was 7 the first time white person called me a N***** man called me a little n***** boy this was a airport official in the Memphis International Airport. I was the only Black student in my elementary school i was removed from that school after catching my hand in a stapler was paraded in front of the class by the teacher for 20mins so she could show that my blood was red. those are just my stories if you meet a black person that doesn't have a few stories like these of their own then I would like to meet that person and shake their hand cause thats the dream. My dream is that my children (when and if i ever have any ) will not have the same fear of the government the police that i do. I hope that they will not have to fight to have be afraid that their first mistake wont ruin their lives. Argue this point all you like but this is the America that i and the vast majority of the black people i know live in. You ask why we cant just let it go because we are reminded on a event by event basis that we are not viewed the same way in this country.

Wheetsinthx
I was just wondering because there was a poll that showed 19% of Obama supporters and 25 or some odd percent of Hillary supporters will vote for McCain in the general election if their candidate isn't the nominee.
thats nonsense you know.

BTW as i read through this i notice that i can could a little hostile... that is not my intention. This post has been going on for 4 pages now as i think that i may have given the wrong impression so i hope with this post i am more clear. And understand that there is no easy solution, it took 450 years to get here it will take a bit longer to right things.( i added the 40 years since Dr.Kings Death.)

Gloucester · 04-07-2008, 03:29 PM

[quote=TheWatcher;790798]

Okay, I'm stepping back some from my frustrations. It sounded to me that you are looking for something, and I was getting upset because I don't have anything to give. I am not one of the people who would mistreat you if I saw you on the street. I would smile at you and say, "Hi!" That said, I have some questions and comments (of course!) :).

I am not asking for monetary hand out...

What then, do you suggest? Without hostility, I am asking: What can we (whites? America?) do to make it right?

actually i would be happy if people would stop acting like slavery and other injustices were no bit deal,

How? I don't wake up every morning, thinking, "Man...too bad America did that." I have enough of my own lifetime regrets, that I don't want to make up for other people's guilt. It's not my load to carry - it is no big deal to me. I don't mean to sound harsh or evil - but I don't have the same experiences you have had. I hate that it happened, but I can't do more than that.

i am not and have never wanted money for slavery cause i am too far removed for it to matter to me. But my fathers mother and my father there are things that get passed down from generation to generation that are never forgotten and when people say or imply that all we need do is forget about it.

I'm not saying forget it happened...but I'm saying going forward, there is nothing that can UNDO it.

That does My grand mother, my mother,my father and everyone in my family who could not or were not allowed to do something for the color of their skin a grave disservice. Yes i am part of a new more understanding generation that of witch i am proud, but the simple fact is that being black in American means something different. it means i have to CYA all the time. i live in a country where i live in constant fear of the police, where if i have to deal with the judicial system i am 40% more likely to get a harsher sentence than that of fairer skinned people, I live in a country where more that 10 times in my lifetime i have been stopped by the police because i fit the description,or i am in a nice car in the wrong neighborhood (predominately white),I live in a country when (especially in the south) i have been hand cuffed 6 time and yet i never have been arrested. this continued unfair treatment is what the black community is talking about. the fact the blacks in the US as close as 5 years ago are still being lynched for Dating white women.

My sister-in-law is Philipino and lives in San Diego, near the border. She gets pulled over once a month, asked for her Green Card, and on several occassions gets frisked. It's part of the profile, because she looks hispanic.

Hell, I've been handcuffed and let go, and I'm just a white girl. When people are bigger or irate, the cops tend handcuff them for their own protection. At the time I was pissed, but I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and a bit wild in my younger days. Looking back at the experience, I'd have slapped me silly back then.

I've been with my daughter's father when stuff like that has happened. I know it happens. But the danger is in thinking everyone is like that. Not all white people are like that. Some are, and what I *think* is that it's dying away. Things are fading, and as long as the younger generation shows each other, and the older generations that "it's not big deal" (speaking of racial differences here) then things will fade. But, when one race demands respect because of past injustices, it makes a wall where none existed before. If you and I are friends and you keep talking about how your grandparents were mistreated by my grandparents, I'll get really grumpy with you pretty quickly. There are more constructive things to talk about, and old hates need to die out. Stories are great, passed on from generation to generation, but the telling needs to be emphasized with THIS WAS IN THE PAST. People can change, but not if no one believes in them.

no i am not saying that YOU own the community anything but the country owes us Fairness. Now if you can understand that then thats fine and if you still can that fine too. The black community isn't trying to break America we have as little to gain from America breaking as anyone else we are in the schools we are here too. but we are not treated fairly every black person i know had been mistreated in some way. I was 7 the first time white person called me a N***** man called me a little n***** boy this was a airport official in the Memphis International Airport.

When I was 7 a little black girl in my class came over, kicked the crap out of me and called me Honkey. I didn't even know what that meant. I'd never heard the N word, or honkey before...I never understood why she hated me, and it was because I was white. I can understand a life like that, 10-fold would suck.

I was the only Black student in my elementary school i was removed from that school after catching my hand in a stapler was paraded in front of the class by the teacher for 20mins so she could show that my blood was red.

Can you imagine that happening today, though? That sucks for you and she should have been fired. But, what I'm trying to get you to understand is that those things are happening less and less. People are wiser and more understanding now.

those are just my stories if you meet a black person that doesn't have a few stories like these of their own then I would like to meet that person and shake their hand cause thats the dream. My dream is that my children (when and if i ever have any ) will not have the same fear of the government the police that i do.

Was that fear put in you by your parents, or after you experienced these things?

I hope that they will not have to fight to have be afraid that their first mistake wont ruin their lives.

I hope the same for my daughter, who is mixed. Her family has not had the experiences you're talking about. Her father is a good man (though we have our differences) and has never been handcuffed. He was the only black kid in his elementary school growing up (and he's 19 years older than I am, so this was a ways back.) He does say it was tough at first because his skin is very dark and he faced questions from the other kids that were embarassing. Rather than getting angry about it (which he says he wanted to do) he tried to educate them. He talked to them. He graduated from school with honors. His other 2 daughters are good kids. One gets in trouble more than the other, but she's a little wilder, too.

Argue this point all you like but this is the America that i and the vast majority of the black people i know live in. You ask why we cant just let it go because we are reminded on a event by event basis that we are not viewed the same way in this country.

But, then why aren't you angry at the event that happens on the event by event basis? Why are you angry at the past? The past can't change. Things can change now. Each time you're handcuffed inappropiately, how do you handle it? Is there something you could do differently in those situations?

It's not the country, and I get defensive when you blame America, when the individuals are at fault for holding on to past grudges that need to be resolved. I think it says a lot about America that there is a black nominee. We have come this far, let's not go backwards.

BTW as i read through this i notice that i can could a little hostile... that is not my intention. This post has been going on for 4 pages now as i think that i may have given the wrong impression so i hope with this post i am more clear. And understand that there is no easy solution, it took 450 years to get here it will take a bit longer to right things.( i added the 40 years since Dr.Kings Death.)

Sorry if that hostility seems to come from me. That's not my intent, either. I enjoy the back and forth, but really am curious to know what it is we (whites, America) can do for the black community that isn't already set in motion?

**Jack** · 04-07-2008, 07:57 PM

Watcher: re: "The black community isn't trying to break America we have as little to gain from America breaking as anyone else"

That's a really great point. It's hard to consider that, however true it may be...I think the stereotypes such as the rappers and Gangsta image promoted by various commercial interests tend to confuse the reality of 'white America' with the image they are selling for a profit....

A few years ago in my home town (a small rural place with virtually zero black population even in the county) I was astonished to come across this scene: a absolute HOT red high bux BMX full of high school boys, with high db rapper song blasting out of the sunroof, all decked out in the ghetto uniform (obvious when they got out of car) of pants dropped below their butt crack, hats properly turned to one side or the other, nodding in mutually reinforced spasmodic movements approximating a slow clonic musculocskeletal seizure episode, while rapping the lyrics about how miserable their life was...and they were all white kids of high school age...

Not that it mattered, it was a little strange....obviously bux up from somewhere...and their lives didn't appear all that miserable from what casual observers could tell...

I myself have been put up against the wall briskly more that once, sniffed with dogs, patted down in unfriendly ways, cuffed and on the ground at gun point...

and I'm just a fat old white guy....

We all deserve better than what we're getting IMHO....

Related to my point: the old movie "The Running Man" , a late 80s Schwartzenegger action film about collusion between government and TV reality show featuring 'criminal runners' pursued by virtuous 'stalkers' teminating their attempt to flee...and the self-serving actions those in power will undertake to maintain control...

You have given me some new perspective, thank you. I don't know how we will come up with better answers.